David Moutard, August 13th, 2024
Title
David Moutard, August 13th, 2024
Description
In this interview, David Moutard shares what he witnessed during Covid as a teacher and how he saw Covid-19 and online learning affect students and teachers.
Publisher
Detroit Historical Society
Date
8/13/24
Rights
Detroit Historical Society
Language
en-US
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
David Moutard
Brief Biography
David Moutard is a lifelong resident of Roseville, Michigan, with a PhD in Physics from Wayne State University.
Interviewer's Name
Kevin Hawthorne
Interview Length
18:45
Transcription
Kevin Hawthorne: Hello, this is Kevin Hawthorne with Detroit Historical Society with the oral history for Covid 19. I'm joined here today with.
David Moutard: David Moutard
KH: All right David welcome. Thanks for coming today.
DH: Yeah no problem.
KH: And I'll start. what area do you live in?
DM: I live in Roseville, Michigan.
KH: And around how far away from Detroit is that?
DM: I don't know, about two miles from the border. Maybe a 20 minute drive to downtown. Something like that.
KH: All right, and just to start with Covid 19, do you remember where you first were when you remember the state shutdown?
DM: I don't remember exactly when the shutdown started. I do remember I was hanging out with a friend. I had just gotten back from the grocery store buying toilet paper like everybody else, thinking, this is a weird thing and this might not go our way pretty soon.
KH: Uh were you, were you of the mind of like, okay, we're going to shut down for two weeks and then when it comes back, we'll all be fine or were you like, I think we're going to be dealing with this for a while?
Dm: Oh, definitely the former. I was thinking, you know, oh, this is another—.You know, I don't know, just just another one of these things that makes a good story, and gets, gets the headlines going for a couple days and then never affects me ever again. And so that's what I was prepared for.
KH: And when do you think it truly set in that, like, oh, this is different than something, let's say, like, you know, I remember when we were growing up, there was like swine flu and bird flu, which were definitely scary. But then like, you know, after a month or so or even a couple of years before this was like the Ebola scare, and it was always frightening, but then what made you realize that this was different?
DM: I, I still remember the first time I was on, Wayne State's campus, and I was going to go get lunch with a friend, and it was just bizarre how empty— how empty, campus was. And, you know, I remember walking to go get lunch and not seeing anybody else. And when you did see somebody else, they always felt very hurried. And, you know, like nobody was hanging out outside. It was a very bizarre atmosphere that was, I don't know, probably a couple of weeks after and maybe less than that I don't know— The time frame is weird, but shortly after it had hit Michigan, that there was something in the air after that.
KH: And, how long did it take you to contract Covid, if at all?
DM: I didn't get Covid until, late last year. Late 2023. September 2023. Sounds right.
KH: And, what was your experience with that?
Dm: I had, I think, a relatively short lived illness, but, it was it was pretty rough. Is pretty flu-y for me. My wife got it as well. I think she had more, like, chest cold type stuff. But for me, I was nauseous and body aches and fever and, that sort of thing.
KH: And when you did, get it, had you been vaccinated at that point?
DM: I had yeah, I got the vaccine right when it was available to me in 2021 or whatever that was.
KH: And, just while Covid was spreading throughout the community, did you notice anything from your neighbors or anyone in your direct family also being affected in a way that, really gave you pause?
DM: Yeah. I mean, you know, it was a little strange not being able to see my, my friends and family the way that I used to. You know, everything felt like if you needed to bring something to a family member, you drop it on the porch and drive away. I remember, you know, going to the grocery store and, you know, I'd be wearing a mask and some other people wouldn't be and it felt like this weird symbol. I don't know. It was definitely an odd atmosphere.
KH: Yeah, it definitely felt surreal at first, especially. I remember there was that— before we knew if it could spread on surfaces. I remember, like, you would see people going to the grocery store and going, like, wiping down like the self-checkout aisle every time they used it because again, like, and I was I think they found out that it didn't actually do anything. But in the early days when, like we were finding out in real time what was happening. So there was this definitely big surreal feeling, that pervades throughout the whole entire, like early parts of the pandemic especially.
DM: Yeah, definitely.
KH: And, you were attending graduate school while you were— this was happening, correct?
DM: Yep. That's right. Yeah. I was getting my PhD at Wayne State.
KH: What was your PhD in.
DM: Getting a PhD in physics
KH And, how was the experience of going to school during Covid?
DM: That was— that was bizarre. It was. You know it was what? March 2020 when the schools kind of started shutting down. That was one of my last semester taking classes and I was also teaching classes at the same time. So I got the, I guess, somewhat unique experience of being on both sides of the, zoom classroom. I know that teachers never liked teaching on zoom. Students didn't like learning on zoom. And I got to be on both sides of it and it was it was really tough. I mean, from a student perspective, you know, you're suddenly getting used to doing this at home. You know, working from home always takes, a bit of an adjustment. And so, you know, taking your classes is one thing, but teaching is is incredibly hard when you don't have the faces of your students. You know, you don't have any kind of feedback over, you know, if the things you're saying or getting through to anybody, it's harder to have one on one conversations with students. Teaching and learning over zoom was incredibly difficult.
KH: And especially did you see, like, a difference in like, grades, like, you know, with yourself or when you were teaching of like, you knows when it came to zoom, like if you saw grades suffer some people grades improve.
DM: I so I had one class where my grades did improve, but it was mostly because the professor gave us extra time on the exams. But, I think that most people were, grading on a bit of, an undisclosed curve. Yeah. It wasn't, you know, everybody was, at least everybody that I dealt with was pretty understanding of, like, this is not the standard teaching or learning environment. If you start to suffer a little bit, I don't want to fail you because this is a novel thing for all of us. Yes.
KH: Just an in general, like, so obviously the, zoom— like the move to zoom was, strange for everyone was teaching and being a student. Was there any other effects in, like, the collegiate system or the university system that you noticed changed during Covid, for better or for worse?
DM: I mean, I was also working at the, Wayne State Planetarium at the time. And obviously public shows fell by the wayside. You know, we couldn't really gather 60 people into a small room during Covid. For pretty good reason. So I think outreach suffered a lot. And, you know, even today, where things are more public, it's still, there's still a bit of a barrier. I think people haven't quite, gotten back to the same level of outreach, that they used to be at pre-COVID. I think that. We initially saw, kind of a, decrease in certain math skills from newer students like freshmen coming in out of high school who had gone through a lot of high school during Covid. I do think that's starting to— I'm sure there are studies on this, but, I from my own perspective, I think those are kind of starting to level out now. But definitely for a long time there was, a lot of, like, knock down effects, students coming into college less prepared. And I do think that that starting to balance now.
KH: Essentially. So do you still currently teach in, Wayne County? Like at Wayne Community College?
DM: No, I do not. I actually just finished my PhD, so I'm not teaching currently.
KH: All right. What is your current field in?
DM: I'm still doing, research in astrophysics. I'm starting a new job soon, at the University of Michigan. But I won't be teaching. I'll just be doing research there.
KH: And had did you see, were you involved with the University of Michigan while you were at Wayne's at all, or was there any overlap?
DM: No. No, nothing very direct. Aside from, like, a few distant colleagues there.
KH All right. And just, going along, what would you say to, like, people who thought like that the move to zoom wouldn't be a big deal to Covid.
DM: You know, I the people that I talk to, I don't think there is a single one who did think that, there was nobody who is happy with the move to zoom. Maybe people who were outside of the field thought like, oh, well, teach and you're just talking at home anyway, so, you know, what's the difference? But everybody that I knew, but like I said, both teachers and students had pretty strong opinions on, and, the zoom teaching, but it was putting up against the, you know, public health needs. So we're kind of just. You know, bearing down and doing it.
KH: And currently, four years out from the, from the depths of the pandemic, because I feel like it's easy to say that we are no longer living in the pandemic, but that's still very much not the case. What have you seen the main difference of like, Covid today and like 2024 versus in 2020?
DM: I mean, in general, I think people take it less seriously. People take illness less seriously. You know, a lot of people are vaccinated now, and so that sort of gives people something of a free pass. So I think that a lot of people have. I don't know, I guess let their guard down. Up to this point. But, I do still think that there's a bit of like factionalism surrounding Covid. And if you know you were a mask wearer you got a vaccine, then you're different than the people who weren't. And I think that that kind of stigma has still carried through, even though most people aren't wearing masks anymore.
KH: That's interesting. Do you think you've seen that kind of stigma from the Covid masking thing kind of go to other facets of just daily life?
DM:I think that's hard to say. I think the stigma surrounding the Covid masking and the vaccines had a lot to do with the, broader political climate, at the time that Covid happened, you know, it was is an election year, which is already, kind of tough spot. And it did get pretty heavily politicized. So I think it's hard to say that, like the stigma surrounding masking and vaccines, you know, that that's definitely carried through but I think as part of the broader political divisiveness that has been around since then.
KH: No, absolutely. And you mentioned earlier you and your wife both contracted Covid. Did you have anyone else close in your life who contracted Covid?
DM: I mean, basically everybody I know has had it at least once. I've been fortunate enough not to, like, have anybody get severely sick. Not not anybody incredibly close to me, at least. Yeah.
KH: That was going to be my next question. If you had had anyone, who had gotten in particular, a serious case of Covid while it was happening. So most people you, you knew were lucky. That base pretty much got, like, the normal symptoms.
DM: For the most part, my my wife's grandmother was hospitalized for a period. I, you know, she, thank goodness, came out the other side okay. But, you know, I mean, I was that was the only person I know personally, at least, who who had severe Covid.
KH Yeah. So obviously with you going to grad school, your personal life, what there's a lot of things that Covid like impacted. What do you think was the biggest impact and or what was the most surprising impact of Covid for you?
DM: The most surprising impact of Covid? You know, I think that in general it's like the long term. Like like knock down effects regarding, like socializing. I think that there's still at least among people who are, like, more careful during the beginning of the pandemic. I think that there's still, you know, while I'm still always willing to or, you know, at this point, I'm willing to go hang out with people face to face and, like, it doesn't usually bother me. I do think that there's there's just kind of an underlying, feeling. I guess it's hard to explain, but there is like, you know, more willingness to hang out online instead of in person because we're so used to hanging out online because we did that exclusively for 2 or 3 years, you know? I think that it has like, I don't want to say permanently because I don't know what five years down the line holds, but like, up to this date, I think it's affected the way that we socialize. And I think that that sort of surprised me because I kind of figured once they, you know, got the vaccine and gave the go ahead to to start seeing friends and family again, that everything would kind of just pop back to normal.
KH: That's interesting. Do you still find yourself on a lot of online spaces that you became a part of because of Covid?
DM: I mean, I, I guess I don't know about like, like, like not in particular communities, like specific spaces, but like, you know, rather than making plans to go hang out at a friend's house instead, I might make plans to play video games over discord or something, you know, like that. That's the sort of, you know, it's it's much it's much easier to plan an online hang now than I think it was before Covid.
KH: Oh, no, that's a very interesting. And then going forward into the future, do you. Do you feel any kind of trepidation about the future of, like, another pandemic happening or another widespread illness after what happened with Covid?
DM: I mean, yeah, of course, you know, like a lot of people died from Covid, right? Like that's— and I think that it sort of high lit the weaknesses in, you know, in the systems and the the weaknesses in people as well. Right. I think a lot of the, the spread had to do with, with that politicization of it, with people's willingness to— I don't know—Ignore their neighbors and ignore the well-being of their neighbors. And I don't know if that's something, you know, I don't know if that's just a human nature thing or if that's, again, a result of the the political era that we, you know, are living through. But, I think if anything like this happens again in the next 3 to 5 years, it could spell trouble. You know, I, I have hope that ten years from now, maybe we'll get it together a little bit, though.
KH: And just in general, both the state and national government, how did you feel they responded to the Covid pandemic?
DM :It's— I mean, I mean, the. There wasn't a lot that we knew at the time, you know. I mean, you mentioned people wiping stuff down because we just weren't sure if that would be helpful. And so I think it's easy to point to like the flaws and the failures of the system. I think it's easy to point to the overbearing things that the system did, like maybe shutting down things that didn't actually need to be shut down, but with so much uncertainty—. I don't know. I'm not a public health expert right? Like, I don't want to, make strong claims. I will say I remember reading a study from England. I don't remember where exactly, that did, evaluate every governors response, every US governors response to Covid. And Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan, was ranked the best by this, study that I remember seeing. So as far as Michigan goes, I guess pretty good, but I, I don't feel confident enough in my knowledge of public health to like, you know, levy accusations or, you know, raise great praise for anybody.
KH: No. It's absolutely. That's a very fair assessment. All right. And, is there any final thoughts on anything we've talked about or anything you'd like to discuss before we end?
DM: I just think that this is a, cool project. I think recording history is neat. And I think that this is a historical event. And so recording it is an awesome thing. So good word to you and to the Detroit Historical Society. And it's all very rad.
KH Thank you. Thank you very much. It is quite rad. All right. And that'll be it.
David Moutard: David Moutard
KH: All right David welcome. Thanks for coming today.
DH: Yeah no problem.
KH: And I'll start. what area do you live in?
DM: I live in Roseville, Michigan.
KH: And around how far away from Detroit is that?
DM: I don't know, about two miles from the border. Maybe a 20 minute drive to downtown. Something like that.
KH: All right, and just to start with Covid 19, do you remember where you first were when you remember the state shutdown?
DM: I don't remember exactly when the shutdown started. I do remember I was hanging out with a friend. I had just gotten back from the grocery store buying toilet paper like everybody else, thinking, this is a weird thing and this might not go our way pretty soon.
KH: Uh were you, were you of the mind of like, okay, we're going to shut down for two weeks and then when it comes back, we'll all be fine or were you like, I think we're going to be dealing with this for a while?
Dm: Oh, definitely the former. I was thinking, you know, oh, this is another—.You know, I don't know, just just another one of these things that makes a good story, and gets, gets the headlines going for a couple days and then never affects me ever again. And so that's what I was prepared for.
KH: And when do you think it truly set in that, like, oh, this is different than something, let's say, like, you know, I remember when we were growing up, there was like swine flu and bird flu, which were definitely scary. But then like, you know, after a month or so or even a couple of years before this was like the Ebola scare, and it was always frightening, but then what made you realize that this was different?
DM: I, I still remember the first time I was on, Wayne State's campus, and I was going to go get lunch with a friend, and it was just bizarre how empty— how empty, campus was. And, you know, I remember walking to go get lunch and not seeing anybody else. And when you did see somebody else, they always felt very hurried. And, you know, like nobody was hanging out outside. It was a very bizarre atmosphere that was, I don't know, probably a couple of weeks after and maybe less than that I don't know— The time frame is weird, but shortly after it had hit Michigan, that there was something in the air after that.
KH: And, how long did it take you to contract Covid, if at all?
DM: I didn't get Covid until, late last year. Late 2023. September 2023. Sounds right.
KH: And, what was your experience with that?
Dm: I had, I think, a relatively short lived illness, but, it was it was pretty rough. Is pretty flu-y for me. My wife got it as well. I think she had more, like, chest cold type stuff. But for me, I was nauseous and body aches and fever and, that sort of thing.
KH: And when you did, get it, had you been vaccinated at that point?
DM: I had yeah, I got the vaccine right when it was available to me in 2021 or whatever that was.
KH: And, just while Covid was spreading throughout the community, did you notice anything from your neighbors or anyone in your direct family also being affected in a way that, really gave you pause?
DM: Yeah. I mean, you know, it was a little strange not being able to see my, my friends and family the way that I used to. You know, everything felt like if you needed to bring something to a family member, you drop it on the porch and drive away. I remember, you know, going to the grocery store and, you know, I'd be wearing a mask and some other people wouldn't be and it felt like this weird symbol. I don't know. It was definitely an odd atmosphere.
KH: Yeah, it definitely felt surreal at first, especially. I remember there was that— before we knew if it could spread on surfaces. I remember, like, you would see people going to the grocery store and going, like, wiping down like the self-checkout aisle every time they used it because again, like, and I was I think they found out that it didn't actually do anything. But in the early days when, like we were finding out in real time what was happening. So there was this definitely big surreal feeling, that pervades throughout the whole entire, like early parts of the pandemic especially.
DM: Yeah, definitely.
KH: And, you were attending graduate school while you were— this was happening, correct?
DM: Yep. That's right. Yeah. I was getting my PhD at Wayne State.
KH: What was your PhD in.
DM: Getting a PhD in physics
KH And, how was the experience of going to school during Covid?
DM: That was— that was bizarre. It was. You know it was what? March 2020 when the schools kind of started shutting down. That was one of my last semester taking classes and I was also teaching classes at the same time. So I got the, I guess, somewhat unique experience of being on both sides of the, zoom classroom. I know that teachers never liked teaching on zoom. Students didn't like learning on zoom. And I got to be on both sides of it and it was it was really tough. I mean, from a student perspective, you know, you're suddenly getting used to doing this at home. You know, working from home always takes, a bit of an adjustment. And so, you know, taking your classes is one thing, but teaching is is incredibly hard when you don't have the faces of your students. You know, you don't have any kind of feedback over, you know, if the things you're saying or getting through to anybody, it's harder to have one on one conversations with students. Teaching and learning over zoom was incredibly difficult.
KH: And especially did you see, like, a difference in like, grades, like, you know, with yourself or when you were teaching of like, you knows when it came to zoom, like if you saw grades suffer some people grades improve.
DM: I so I had one class where my grades did improve, but it was mostly because the professor gave us extra time on the exams. But, I think that most people were, grading on a bit of, an undisclosed curve. Yeah. It wasn't, you know, everybody was, at least everybody that I dealt with was pretty understanding of, like, this is not the standard teaching or learning environment. If you start to suffer a little bit, I don't want to fail you because this is a novel thing for all of us. Yes.
KH: Just an in general, like, so obviously the, zoom— like the move to zoom was, strange for everyone was teaching and being a student. Was there any other effects in, like, the collegiate system or the university system that you noticed changed during Covid, for better or for worse?
DM: I mean, I was also working at the, Wayne State Planetarium at the time. And obviously public shows fell by the wayside. You know, we couldn't really gather 60 people into a small room during Covid. For pretty good reason. So I think outreach suffered a lot. And, you know, even today, where things are more public, it's still, there's still a bit of a barrier. I think people haven't quite, gotten back to the same level of outreach, that they used to be at pre-COVID. I think that. We initially saw, kind of a, decrease in certain math skills from newer students like freshmen coming in out of high school who had gone through a lot of high school during Covid. I do think that's starting to— I'm sure there are studies on this, but, I from my own perspective, I think those are kind of starting to level out now. But definitely for a long time there was, a lot of, like, knock down effects, students coming into college less prepared. And I do think that that starting to balance now.
KH: Essentially. So do you still currently teach in, Wayne County? Like at Wayne Community College?
DM: No, I do not. I actually just finished my PhD, so I'm not teaching currently.
KH: All right. What is your current field in?
DM: I'm still doing, research in astrophysics. I'm starting a new job soon, at the University of Michigan. But I won't be teaching. I'll just be doing research there.
KH: And had did you see, were you involved with the University of Michigan while you were at Wayne's at all, or was there any overlap?
DM: No. No, nothing very direct. Aside from, like, a few distant colleagues there.
KH All right. And just, going along, what would you say to, like, people who thought like that the move to zoom wouldn't be a big deal to Covid.
DM: You know, I the people that I talk to, I don't think there is a single one who did think that, there was nobody who is happy with the move to zoom. Maybe people who were outside of the field thought like, oh, well, teach and you're just talking at home anyway, so, you know, what's the difference? But everybody that I knew, but like I said, both teachers and students had pretty strong opinions on, and, the zoom teaching, but it was putting up against the, you know, public health needs. So we're kind of just. You know, bearing down and doing it.
KH: And currently, four years out from the, from the depths of the pandemic, because I feel like it's easy to say that we are no longer living in the pandemic, but that's still very much not the case. What have you seen the main difference of like, Covid today and like 2024 versus in 2020?
DM: I mean, in general, I think people take it less seriously. People take illness less seriously. You know, a lot of people are vaccinated now, and so that sort of gives people something of a free pass. So I think that a lot of people have. I don't know, I guess let their guard down. Up to this point. But, I do still think that there's a bit of like factionalism surrounding Covid. And if you know you were a mask wearer you got a vaccine, then you're different than the people who weren't. And I think that that kind of stigma has still carried through, even though most people aren't wearing masks anymore.
KH: That's interesting. Do you think you've seen that kind of stigma from the Covid masking thing kind of go to other facets of just daily life?
DM:I think that's hard to say. I think the stigma surrounding the Covid masking and the vaccines had a lot to do with the, broader political climate, at the time that Covid happened, you know, it was is an election year, which is already, kind of tough spot. And it did get pretty heavily politicized. So I think it's hard to say that, like the stigma surrounding masking and vaccines, you know, that that's definitely carried through but I think as part of the broader political divisiveness that has been around since then.
KH: No, absolutely. And you mentioned earlier you and your wife both contracted Covid. Did you have anyone else close in your life who contracted Covid?
DM: I mean, basically everybody I know has had it at least once. I've been fortunate enough not to, like, have anybody get severely sick. Not not anybody incredibly close to me, at least. Yeah.
KH: That was going to be my next question. If you had had anyone, who had gotten in particular, a serious case of Covid while it was happening. So most people you, you knew were lucky. That base pretty much got, like, the normal symptoms.
DM: For the most part, my my wife's grandmother was hospitalized for a period. I, you know, she, thank goodness, came out the other side okay. But, you know, I mean, I was that was the only person I know personally, at least, who who had severe Covid.
KH Yeah. So obviously with you going to grad school, your personal life, what there's a lot of things that Covid like impacted. What do you think was the biggest impact and or what was the most surprising impact of Covid for you?
DM: The most surprising impact of Covid? You know, I think that in general it's like the long term. Like like knock down effects regarding, like socializing. I think that there's still at least among people who are, like, more careful during the beginning of the pandemic. I think that there's still, you know, while I'm still always willing to or, you know, at this point, I'm willing to go hang out with people face to face and, like, it doesn't usually bother me. I do think that there's there's just kind of an underlying, feeling. I guess it's hard to explain, but there is like, you know, more willingness to hang out online instead of in person because we're so used to hanging out online because we did that exclusively for 2 or 3 years, you know? I think that it has like, I don't want to say permanently because I don't know what five years down the line holds, but like, up to this date, I think it's affected the way that we socialize. And I think that that sort of surprised me because I kind of figured once they, you know, got the vaccine and gave the go ahead to to start seeing friends and family again, that everything would kind of just pop back to normal.
KH: That's interesting. Do you still find yourself on a lot of online spaces that you became a part of because of Covid?
DM: I mean, I, I guess I don't know about like, like, like not in particular communities, like specific spaces, but like, you know, rather than making plans to go hang out at a friend's house instead, I might make plans to play video games over discord or something, you know, like that. That's the sort of, you know, it's it's much it's much easier to plan an online hang now than I think it was before Covid.
KH: Oh, no, that's a very interesting. And then going forward into the future, do you. Do you feel any kind of trepidation about the future of, like, another pandemic happening or another widespread illness after what happened with Covid?
DM: I mean, yeah, of course, you know, like a lot of people died from Covid, right? Like that's— and I think that it sort of high lit the weaknesses in, you know, in the systems and the the weaknesses in people as well. Right. I think a lot of the, the spread had to do with, with that politicization of it, with people's willingness to— I don't know—Ignore their neighbors and ignore the well-being of their neighbors. And I don't know if that's something, you know, I don't know if that's just a human nature thing or if that's, again, a result of the the political era that we, you know, are living through. But, I think if anything like this happens again in the next 3 to 5 years, it could spell trouble. You know, I, I have hope that ten years from now, maybe we'll get it together a little bit, though.
KH: And just in general, both the state and national government, how did you feel they responded to the Covid pandemic?
DM :It's— I mean, I mean, the. There wasn't a lot that we knew at the time, you know. I mean, you mentioned people wiping stuff down because we just weren't sure if that would be helpful. And so I think it's easy to point to like the flaws and the failures of the system. I think it's easy to point to the overbearing things that the system did, like maybe shutting down things that didn't actually need to be shut down, but with so much uncertainty—. I don't know. I'm not a public health expert right? Like, I don't want to, make strong claims. I will say I remember reading a study from England. I don't remember where exactly, that did, evaluate every governors response, every US governors response to Covid. And Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan, was ranked the best by this, study that I remember seeing. So as far as Michigan goes, I guess pretty good, but I, I don't feel confident enough in my knowledge of public health to like, you know, levy accusations or, you know, raise great praise for anybody.
KH: No. It's absolutely. That's a very fair assessment. All right. And, is there any final thoughts on anything we've talked about or anything you'd like to discuss before we end?
DM: I just think that this is a, cool project. I think recording history is neat. And I think that this is a historical event. And so recording it is an awesome thing. So good word to you and to the Detroit Historical Society. And it's all very rad.
KH Thank you. Thank you very much. It is quite rad. All right. And that'll be it.
Collection
Citation
“David Moutard, August 13th, 2024,” Detroit Historical Society Oral History Archive, accessed February 17, 2025, https://oralhistory.detroithistorical.org/items/show/1044.